Ep 80: The Art and Science of Pattern Making with Alessio Berto

A great garment begins long before it reaches a sewing machine.

In Episode 80, Andrew sits down with Alessio Berto, founder of The Tailor Pattern Support and one of Italy’s most experienced pattern designers. Over nearly four decades, Alessio has worked across denim, menswear, sportswear, teaching, and product development for brands including Replay, Jean Paul Gaultier, DKNY Jeans, Diesel Denim Gallery, Sport Chanel, Katharine Hamnett, and Boy London.

The conversation begins outside Venice, where Alessio grew up around the pattern-making school where his mother taught, reading fashion magazines, studying the clothes worn by his favorite musicians, and later discovering a passion for DJing that still fuels his creativity today.

Andrew and Alessio get into the invisible work behind fit: fabric, shrinkage, construction, grading, manufacturing, and the countless decisions hidden inside a garment that simply feels right.

They also talk about Made in Italy, globalization, technology, teaching, and why design is only one part of the process.

For Alessio, pattern making began as an art, became a technique, grew into a science, and ultimately had to be engineered. After learning the rules, the real freedom comes from knowing when to break them, much like improvisation in jazz.

Thank you to our sponsor Inside Denim.

Alessio Berto
Founder of The Tailor Pattern Support
The Tailor Pattern Support, Instagram, LinkedIn

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Transcript

Andrew 0:00

If you value these conversations, subscribe and leave a review. It helps more than you think. I'm really very blessed because this gentleman that we're going to talk to today actually reached out to me and I love that when that happens. And what's the blessing is that it's somebody very special that I didn't know, which I love, and somebody who has a great knowledge in our industry and also who likes music. So I mean, what more could you ask? Welcome to our podcast, Alessio, Alessio Alberto.

Alessio 0:36

Hi, Andrew. Thank you very much for your hospitality. You're a pattern maker. How long have you been doing that? Next year will be 40 years. That's it? Yes. 40 years. I started when I was uh yeah, only 40 years exactly. Started when I was 17.

Andrew 0:54

Seventeen. So 17 is high school, right?

Alessio 0:58

Yes, but I I I didn't get any high school thing. I I started because uh I always was in love with music and fashion. And uh still today they go in uh parallel and sometimes they crossed in a way. And uh my mother was uh a teacher in a small uh pattern making school in my hometown, which is was uh just outside Venice in Veneto. And I since I was nine years old, I started to go up and down the school and reading Woman Vogue and all this kind of magazine, fashion magazine. And uh I fed the- you were reading Vogue? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, Vogue and the record sleeves uh to see the look of my uh favorite artists. So I started to eat some kind of fashion. And when I finished my secondary school, I was 14. I supposed to go in a kind of art school because I was great to to draw, you know, sketches, etc. But I didn't like to study too much. So I decided to do a pattern making course. And I started and I finished after one year and a half because it was 18 months lasting. And in that period, there was a lot of small companies in Veneto and around Venice. So when you when I used to read newspapers, because my my first thing, and it's still today, is to try to learn as much as I can. So every time I saw somebody, some company who was looking for a pattern maker or a size grading specialist, I apply and I start to work when I was 17, 16 and a half to be precise. So that's how I started.

Andrew 2:47

And you started alone or you were or you started to work with people you had hired?

Alessio 2:51

Yeah, yeah, I was in small companies. Yes, for the first years I was uh for free because you know nobody was paying a 16 year old guy, because I also had the military service to do, and until you are not out of the military service, nobody hires you. So the first year was a kind of a challenge also for me, because you know uh no payments, I have to buy the fuel for the for the motorcycle, etc. And it was quite hard, but it was quite fun.

Andrew 3:24

Yeah. That's a great background. And I love that you started for free because a lot of people ask me about the business. How do I get started in the business? But they all want a salary.

Alessio 3:34

Exactly, exactly. No, it was like this, and uh in my family we should work, you know, and give a contribution to the appeal. So Me too. Same as my family.

Andrew 3:46

As soon as school's over, they're like, bring in the money. Exactly.

Alessio 3:50

Yeah, yeah. And then uh when I was uh 20, I had five years of uh various experience in a tailor room in Padua developing uh grading uh dresses for the rich people of Padua in this uh tailor room. It was quite funny. And uh then I worked in Venice in a shop, very famous shopping where there were two, one for male and one for woman. And they used to sell uh Giorgio Romani, Gianni Versace, Champaugh Gautier uh kind of stuff. And uh I was in charge, I was 19, I was in charge to copy and reproduce uh the jacket, the main jackets. So I it was the first time I worked on a Champagne Gautier jacket. He was my idol when I was a student, and uh it was the first time I touched a jacket, uh Champagne Gautier jacket, which was very expensive at the time. And uh yeah, and then I met him uh years uh after because I worked for him too. And so but the first uh big jump it was in 1992, thanks to the music, because I used to play DJ in Venice and a friend of mine, Corinzo, used to run um Model Agency. And he was also the artistic director of the this more club in Venice, in the center of Venice. And we used to play jazz and nasty jazz music Saturday night. And uh he asked me to go with him to a casting for a dining company, famous denim company. And he said maybe you know, tomorrow, you know, never knows, maybe they are looking for a pattern designer or whatever. And I went to this uh casting and I talked with uh the two designers, the men and the women as well. And uh they asked me what kind of music you play. I say, I play as it jazz. And I said, we are looking for Acid Jazz DJ for the show. And I say, I can't play DJ, I can't play DJ for you, but you know, I'm also a pattern designer because music is my passion. So if you also are looking for a pattern designer, you know, it will be great. And uh after the show, they we made an interview, and I remember the chief of the designers, he didn't ask me my career or uh which kind of school. He just gave me a varsity jacket, a vintage varsity jacket, and said, copy it and make the pattern exactly as it is in uh six hours. And uh I did it, and they made a prototype, and after one week they called me and they say, You are one of us now. And I started to work in this big company, and I worked there for six years. It was the first big jump in industry and in denim and in vintage kind of uh things because they used to make a lot of research in America and in Paris and uh work on vintage garments. Can I ask you which company that was? Yeah, it was a replay. Oh, so you worked for Claudio. Well, Claudio. Yeah, with Claudio Mussel, yes. Work with him uh six years. So that was the first movement for Denim for you? Exactly, exactly. Also, uh to be honest, uh Denim was uh was still in my life, first of all, because we all grew up in the 70s in Denim, and also because in my hometown there was uh three important things: one record shop and two gym shop. So I used to go uh when I was a kid uh in the in the gym shop to buy sometimes with my parents uh some pair of jeans or whatever, and uh to ask them for the stickers because uh, you know, the Levi stickers, Wrangler stickers, etc. Because I used to exchange the stickers with uh Lunapark people to have uh tokens exchange, stickers versus tokens. You know what I mean? That's funny.

Speaker 2 7:39

I do, that's funny. Yeah, yeah.

Alessio 7:41

So I denim was uh was always in my uh life, you know.

Andrew 7:47

Right. What was your first thought when you started making patterns and denim and jeans? That was different than doing uh clothing or doing a dress.

Alessio 7:55

Yeah, yes, of course. Yeah, and I I understood it uh making mistakes, you know, because uh denim is a completely another word in uh wording pattern making. There is a different line of crowd. There's a little because of the manufacturing, because it came from a workware kind of thing. So he has a construction that should last more than a classic pair of jeans, a smart uh accessory, a pair of trousers. And uh so there is a in pattern making and also in manufacturing is a completely another thing. So you you should you must know some tricks to to manage uh the shapes and the fits.

Andrew 8:33

The biggest problem, the biggest difference must be that the shrinkage is involved in skewing.

Alessio 8:37

Yeah, the shrinkage is another big problem, uh, which is which now is more uh more big than before because before it was uh all about 100% cotton. So the the the shrinkage was like uh 4% maximum. With a heavy wash. Now is uh when when the stretch started in the 80s, 90s, the shrinkage was high. And now with the recycled fibers, uh tensile, and this kind of uh sustainable, you know, let me say this word that I don't like too much, not because of the meaning, but because of how they use it. These new fibers are very difficult to manage if you don't know what to do exactly. So yeah, shrinkage, you uh you must be a very pro to manage shrinkage now, also because many productions are done everywhere. So, you know, when I started everything was uh around uh the company, so it was very easy to manage uh shrinkages or uh manufacturing or uh whatever it was, you know, so it was that is because it was all in the era, the 80s and in the 90s, before the globalization. Now it's it's very difficult. So you you must know how to treat and also how to communicate with uh laundries, etc., to follow up, you know, that they are uh keeping the same receipt of the three cage test. You know, it must be you must be skilled to to manage this topic.

Andrew 10:06

What about different weights of fabrics? Is that difficult for denim? Like you have a seven-ounce denim or a 12-ounce denim or a 14-ounce denim. Does that affect you in the pattern making?

Alessio 10:16

Yes, of course, because uh every every weight uh supposed to deserve a pattern to me. In the past was like this, you know, because the fit is different. Not the fit, but the feeling, you know. And uh so I sometimes I do a slightly change in the in the pattern when I know that the fabric is different. Especially if he's uh rigid and non-rigid. This is very important, that is a completely another pattern.

Andrew 10:44

Do you think pattern making is an art, science, or actually engineering?

Alessio 10:51

Is uh is an art. It started like an art. It became a technique that became a science that must be engineered. And uh it's full of rules, and this is very nice to go out of the woods today, pattern making. This is one of my peculiarities.

Andrew 11:10

Do you think that the people doing pattern making around the world? I mean, uh it's a big word around the world, big words, but the kind of pattern making that you're seeing in the shops. Do you think that pattern making is good and is it a forgotten art? How do you notice it compared to the work that you would expect? Like when you go to, and I don't mean to mention any names of any stores, but you know what I'm talking about, the basic high street stores. What do you think of the work?

Alessio 11:36

Pattern making was uh was very big in Italy until the globalization, until the mid-90s, let's say. And I remember some uh how can I say some uh former colleagues was more important than designers in the 80s. Pattern making was very potent. And uh all the companies were very into pattern making. Then in Italy we had uh we have, we still have, but we had a different feeling in pattern making, which is the made in Italy. Made in Italy is not made in the Italy sole, but is made by some kind of sensitivity, you know, in in pattern making, in design, in manufacturing, in fabric quality, etc. This was made in Italy, supposed to be like this today, but it's a little bit different. So we have a different sensitivity pattern making. And I see this around when I go. There are I met some pattern makers in Bangladesh or in China. They are very precise, uh, they are but we have something different. We are uh I don't know how to define this, is it's something different. That's why all the French brands or the English brands uh came in Italy to to produce, because uh because Italy it has a different kind of uh feeling. I I used to work after replay for a company for in total six years because I went in two times, where they had uh licensed brands like uh DKY, James, Jean-Paul Gautier, Catherine Gamman, Catherine Amnet, uh Moschino, for example, and all these brands came in this company because of the people in the company, you know, because of the structure, because of the skills, etc. And this was uh very, very important. Many companies here in Veneto were uh producing foreign brands because of the quality of the pattern makers and the fabrics, uh technicians for washes and fabric technicians. Uh I I remember a company, vertical company here in Veneto, which was uh amazing, with all the skills in the right place in the right moment, where you can share information every day. You know, I used to, when I when I finished my work at uh six in the evening, I used to go in different uh offices to talk to my colleagues to learn, you know, all three cages and uh production, programming, and all this kind of thing, because I wanted to learn, as I said before. And uh, you know, you you you get the right people in the right place, uh and it was amazing. Now it's no more like this. All the companies now are destructured, they are uh giving uh away out uh pattern making to services here in Italy, like my studio, for example, or abroad and everywhere in the world, you save it. So it was very, very important the pattern making thing in Italy in the past, before the globalization. It still is for some uh you know, luxury brands, etc., but it's uh the a small percentage. In the past, it was the the the the normal.

Andrew 14:48

What's the difference between a good pattern maker and a great one?

Alessio 14:55

The humbleness is correct the word humbleness. What does that mean? Because I mean that uh I don't know the difference. My goal is to make my clients happy and the designers happy and think that uh after I they did my job, somebody in the shop uh fit my jacket or my trousers and say, wow, this fits very good, so I buy it. This is the goal of the pattern makers. And that there are many different kinds of pattern makers and uh many different uh styles, many different sensitivity, etc. So I don't know who's the best. I I try to do my best uh every day since 40 years.

Andrew 15:35

And what what's the biggest mistake that you think uh young designers make when they're working with patterns?

Alessio 15:43

Uh the thing that they think that design is the only thing and there's nothing after. So they don't consider the pattern making, for example, or the industrialization of the garments or the materials sometimes, you know. That's why I speak to my students about this and I say to them, don't think only about your design. Think that there is somebody before you and somebody after you. This is what I do every day in my life. I never do my pattern and say, okay, I did my pattern, you know, and now it's a problem of somebody else. I think about the people who will receive my pattern, maybe in China, in India, in Bangladesh, in Veto. And I think before me, uh to try to do the good questions to the designer to make a better pattern. Because sometimes they I just receive pictures or uh garments to copy or uh roll sketches, etc. No tech pack, no, you know, and they say, Oh, you are the master, you do it. No, I say, I'm I'm a pattern designer, you are the company, so you should give me some information. I do whatever you want me to do.

Andrew 16:52

But let me understand. And then you do a pattern, and then sometimes they send the pattern to some factory in Bangladesh or somewhere and they make the garments?

Alessio 17:00

Yeah, yeah. Some many many companies are producing in uh in in this country which are very, very skilled in technology and uh they are more advanced than our Italian style, I think, because you know they they invest in technology and in in other stuff. But I I send, yes, also when I when I did collaboration for six years with uh Danny Permevision, we did some projects with uh the company who can I say expose the material in the trade show, and I made the patents and sent the patents to Bangladesh or whatever they were. They received my patent and did the prototype with all the information I provide them, like a tech pack or something like this. So it's very good because I can send files everywhere in the world with no problem.

Andrew 17:46

So you worked with Denim by? I'm sorry I changed the subject, but you work with Denim by PV?

Alessio 17:50

Yeah, yeah, I worked for them for six years, yeah. For workshopping, yeah, for for PBC.

Andrew 17:55

How come we never heard of you at King Bill? That's crazy.

Alessio 17:58

Uh I don't know, because I never never travel a lot, because I'm alone and I work uh uh every day in my studio, so I'm not traveling too much. I travel when I have to work for somebody. This is not nice to say, but it's the truth. You know, I'm not a very, you know, I'm just a B-side man. Everybody knows me, but few saw me. Except when I'm uh exposed. Uh but if you yeah, that there are many articles uh about uh my work with uh Danny Primervision around if you check.

Andrew 18:29

If you were gonna suggest to young people to make a perfect pair of jeans, make it fit perfectly, what would be your basic um instructions?

Alessio 18:40

My basic instruction can be to check uh because you know, in in today's life of a pattern maker, you never start from scratch. You always start from a block that you already have and you already know that is fitting good. And then you modify the length, etc. Because we don't have time now to to print paper, to do muslings, etc. We need to go, yeah. Sometimes some clients call me and say, okay, tomorrow I need a pair of uh a pattern, you know, so I don't have time to think. I just pick up the best block I have, which is which looks like the sketch they give me, and I make all the modifications. So my first uh uh suggestion to a student is uh or a new pattern maker is to work on a pair of jeans they already have, studied, put it flat and copied and start from from that. Because if you start for something that is already fitting good, is uh you are half of the work.

Andrew 19:39

Your studio must have an amazing history after 40 years of of old patterns.

Alessio 19:45

Uh yes, and uh a nice archive of more than 350 garments. I think I'm the only pattern-making studio with an archive of vintage garments because usually designers, designers have this kind of archive. But I use it because, first of all, it's my become my wardrobe when I was more thin than now. And um and I use it for my clients, of course, for my students for free, of course, because they need to have knowledge for free, which is important. And uh for myself, first of all, because sometimes I receive you know some sketches uh with some details that are not so clear. So I have a lot of pockets, uh, collars, uh, sleeves, uh, linings, I just check and find the the good one. So I don't need to print papers, I don't need to make uh uh mock-ups, I just copy the the the measurements and the construction and go straight to the to the prototype. This is very helpful having an archive.

Andrew 20:45

So let me ask you this. If Levi's came to you and asked you to fix the 501, what would you change?

Alessio 20:54

It depends which uh era 501. There are many. Like the ones they're selling today. The one they're selling today, I don't know. I need to fit it and see how it looks like. Usually I fit the 1943 one, which is my favorite.

Andrew 21:11

Your favorite is the 1943 one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, the the double X.

Alessio 21:17

The double X uh during the Second World War because uh they was not able to use metals and materials that they used to provide before the the war. They had to change some details. And these details create a 501 which is unique and which is my favorite one. Is uh with no logo buttons, uh no arch in the back with thread, but draw it with a pen kind of pencil. And you know, there are they took off some things and uh use different threads because of the leak of material. They use uh like shirt cotton for the pocket bags uh, so you can have different pocket bags with uh you know one striped or etcetera. So it is a very special file.

Andrew 22:04

This episode of the Jeansland Podcast is brought to you by Inside Denim, the global resource for everything denim. From sustainability insights to fabric innovation and brand stories, shaping the future of the genes industry. Inside Denim keeps you informed and inspired. So stay ahead of what's next in denim at insidedenim.com. You can also visit genesland.co and sign up for our bi-weekly newsletter. It gives you access to our full archive along with the development shifts and stories shaping the denim supply chain in real time. Follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram to stay connected between episodes. Let's talk about CAT CAD. Is it helpful? Is it tell me about how you feel about CAD?

Alessio 22:48

CAD is amazing because I discovered CAD when I was uh 21st. 20, yeah, and it was great because is it's the same thing like carton paper patterns, you know, but it's so fast and it's not changing the attitude of pattern making because it's 2D. You know, 2D is 2D. So uh it's the same thing. It's not like 3D, 3D is different, 2D is 2D. It's more uh precise, more uh real, and it's more like the manual kind of thing, but it's so fast and you can share files everywhere. You can size grade in half an hour, you know, instead of uh one. I remember when I was uh in the beginning and I started as a size grading uh specialist, and I spent, you know, one day to save grade one jacket, you know, because of like 35 pieces, every piece of five sizes, uh cut the carton, copy the line, and recut the carton. It was a crazy. When I when I discovered card, it was a dream.

Andrew 23:48

And I never You can move it around so easily and you can save it digitally.

Alessio 23:52

It's it's kind of unbelievable. There are different kinds of cards, of course. I have a second generation one, which is an Italian software, which is very good and very cheap and very uh reliable. Who is it that's promote the company? Can we promote it? I hope so. Okay, I don't know. It's called uh it's called Caledonia. Caledonia. Caledonia. It's very easy to use, it's a very intuitive. And uh I wrote it 13 years ago when I started my studio. And I think I called them for a problem that I create, of course. Yeah, creating a folder for a new client. Uh, maybe in 30 years, in 13 years, maybe I call them three times. So I never have a problem with that cut. And I share files everywhere, and nobody has a problem to receive my files at work. And where is Caledonia from? It's from uh Bergamo, which is uh just before uh Milan, coming from Venice. I know Bergamo so well. You know Bergamo, yeah. It's a small company, it's I I think it's 15 people, and they developed this software uh maybe 15, 16 years ago. And I saw it for uh, you know, for I don't know why, I saw it somewhere, I don't remember. And I say, okay, this is my software. And I never left it. And how do you see AI in the future? I see AI in the present more than in the future because it's a it's like let's talk about the present. Yeah, yeah. It's like uh maybe it's three and a half, four years, I I see some works, especially from my students with AI. I think it's uh is a tool, first of all, and like 3D cant, for example, and uh is about the people who use this tool, like every tool. You know, if you know what to write in the prompt, etc., you can achieve a good uh sketch or a good uh picture if you are not uh I saw things that were not uh possible, you know. And because many students came to me, oh prof, you know, I would like to make this uh code with this pocket, and I was the picture and say, this is not a pocket, this is like a lever, you know, because it was so straight. So, first of all, you you must know the job, and then you can use the technology. Can they replace a pattern maker? Uh for the moment I don't see a serious software uh AI. I I I look for I saw some uh some software online, but they work uh for what I understood, uh they work from a company data bank. So the company should give them all the data bank, which is not so great. And they they match uh I never see uh uh because nobody show me, I ask, but nobody show me an example example. For example, I give you a sketch and you provide me a pattern. The software worker is uh taking the most nearby pattern from your uh data bank, uh pattern data bank that is more nearby the the sketch. But this is what I do every day. You know, I know exactly in one second which kind of pattern used for us.

Andrew 27:00

The reason I ask you is because now, at least in America, you have taxis that are run by AI without without drivers. Exactly. And the way in the concept intellectually, the way the concept works is the cars, you see them in other cities that don't have that yet. The cars are driving all over the city, learning everything. So they have to drive on every street, I don't know, two, three, four times. They record all the different information. Yeah, then finally when they nail the street, then they can do the driving. So I saw them, I was in New York last week and I saw them driving around New York recording the um the streets. It must be very similar in pattern making.

Alessio 27:38

No, so similar because I see every day. When I when I start uh with a new client, for example, it's like for me to start like the first day, because any any company, any designer, any fabric is different, you know. So if I have a, for example, a blazer jacket, which is great for a customer, for another it can be not great, you know, and it needs some some changes, some alterations, you know. So there's nothing so uh, how can I say given for for uh given for for uh granted, you know, in pattern making because it is about the pattern, it's about the fabric, it's about the uh shrinkage, as you said before, is about the manufacturing. For example, in the past I had a great blazer jacket, and uh a company called me and they say uh we want to make a blazer, and we know that you are specializing blazers, etc. So we ask you to make this pattern. So I made the pattern and I asked them, I will make the first muzzling of the jacket, and you will people send you the company, and you will uh give me the okay in the muzzling. Then I will make a prototype in a jacket manufacturer because jacket manufacturer is different from trousers manufacturer. And uh and when you uh will approve my prototype, I will give you the pattern and you will do whatever you like. After one year, they called me uh telling me that they had some issues with the jacket after one year and I said, okay. So I went to the to the company and they sent the jacket to uh the denim trousers manufacturer. And this was a kind of formal blazer. And uh they added the shrinkage directly on the on the plotter, which is a high shrinkage, it was 11% in uh weft. And when you have 11% in weft, you must make a different pattern. You cannot add all the weft uh uh 11% with uh just percentage uh function. Okay. So when I saw this, uh they say, okay, you know, you're right. Uh sorry if we call you, it's our problem, it's not your problem. You know, so you can have the best pattern, but if you manage a pattern in the wrong way, uh that's why the sensitivity, as I said before, is very important. Every time I start something, I want to see the fabric, I want to try to understand where these garments will be will be done, will be manufactured in, you know, and speak to the company, share some files to see if everything works. This is save my life every day, because you know, when you send a file and you did the test or whatever, it's a problem when you are a freelance, you cannot make mistakes. So is is every day is like a new day for me. That's why I never stay uh how can I say, I always in, you know, watching my back because fashion is like this. And this is good because keep me keep me young.

Andrew 30:40

But our listeners can't see that smile on your face. So you really have a lot of enthusiasm and like it a lot. You still do. All right. Let's change subjects. Yeah. You teach. Tell me why.

Alessio 30:55

I teach before. Uh it was so difficult for me when I was young to learn. And I had to make, you know, like a backflip to understand many things. And so I say, okay, now I know a lot of things, so why I cannot share these things with the students. And uh this was not in my DNA because uh also my mother, as I told you before, was a teacher. But I was a part of the jury and a mentor of a denim uh challenge, which was high school on MISCO, for uh maybe three editions. And uh I started to deal with students there, and I saw that there was something missing from the school to the industry, because uh industry has a completely different kind of uh mentality. Okay. And so I say, okay, because I came from the industry and I'm the industry man, why I can uh why I cannot give to the students the industry vision for the design and also pattern making, but I teach mostly in the design school. Also, if I teach pattern making. Where do you teach? In in Milan. It's called the NABA, Nuova Academia delle Belle Arti and uh Domus Academy. And how many years have you taught? Uh I think this year is seven years. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I have three courses. One course is uh is the second semester of the first year, master, which is uh in the first semester, the students create a 25 pieces collection, two uh outfits, so 25 outfits, and uh two of these outfits they should make it in the second semester. And I have them to make the pattern, the muzzling, and the final garment with an assistant, of course, for the sewing part. So every every semester I manage something like uh 80 garments, and every garment is different because every student has this project, so is uh it's a big challenge because they probably they never make patterns. So and they want to be designers, you know, so they designed a lot of crazy things. And uh we have to uh mostly I have to show them how to do these crazy things, but sometimes they watch me and I do the things because it's so advanced pattern making for them that it's impossible to teach this kind of thing. So I I do it, and when I do it, I show them why I choose this uh instead of that, and why I choose a blog, because we start as in the real life with some uh blocks. So I take to make a crazy jacket, I start from a normal jacket and I change everything to make it become like a lecture sketch.

Andrew 33:38

So it's uh really inspiring because you're not educating yourself. And here you are teaching generation. It's what I did the same thing. I never finished my schooling, and then I ended up helping teach as well. So it's it's really great when people in the industry can share. I think it's amazing.

Alessio 33:56

Yeah, because uh because I remember the first uh day of work, there was a tailor, it was called the Graziano, and that's why I called my office the Taylor Pattern Support, because I was the pattern support of the Taylor, which was Graziano, this man, and he looks like uh Walter Matau. And uh he was funny, I still remember. And when I was um I was 17, as I told you, and I was dressed like Jean-Paul Gottier, you know, with uh very skinny elastic pants, right? A tape three Levi's jacket made by me, by him Poulioretin, black Poulioretin, like a fake leather kind of thing, Dr. Martin's. And uh he he was in a chike suit, you know, chic stripe suit, and he watched me and he said, Who are you? And I say, I'm the new pattern designer, and say, if this is the new generation, we are fucked. And this was my first job, the first day of job, you know, work. And uh so yeah, I try to not do this to my students, and I try to show them the way to become more uh effective as possible in the industry.

Andrew 35:03

Yeah. Are schools producing designers you can sketch and manufacture together?

Alessio 35:09

Yeah, yeah. Where I when I teach, uh yeah, yeah, yeah. Where uh where I teach, uh we are uh the first the first course is to develop this collection. The second course I do is a product developing uh uh course, which is short but is very intensive. And we start from the uh archive garment, from my archive, with uh one one garment, okay. And we do the technical sketch, the tech pack, so with all the fabrics, linings, etc. Measure sheet, uh, the paper pattern, the digital pattern, the first muzzling, and the final prototype. So they can have an industrial trip to make a garment. So they they can't sketch at the end. Yeah.

Andrew 35:48

If you had to give one lesson to every student before graduating to take into industry, what is the most important lesson that you can share to them?

Alessio 35:58

To listen to the people who has more experience. And uh yeah, because sometimes they they try not to listen, you know, because they think we are from the past century, you know. But uh the fashion is like this Jesus Christ, the period. You know, we have to make a pattern, to cut a fabric, to sew it, and to fit it, and this garment must go out of the shops. This is fashion. You know, the rest is uh storytelling. So yeah, I I always say to them, listen to me, and you know, one day you will call me and we say prof you was right. And this is happening, you know, after two or three years, they say, Oh, prof you was right. You know, it was not just about design. It's about pattern making, it's about yes.

Andrew 36:42

Yeah. Do you think pattern making is gonna be a good career today, still? Is there demand? I mean, for young people that want to go in our business?

Alessio 36:51

It depends. It depends. Because many uh many companies now are uh because of uh because you know the art, as you said before, become uh a price. And because of the price, they subcontract everything outside Italy in in the 90s. So also pattern making become uh uh subcontracted. And uh I saw uh generation of pattern making uh get lost in the in this period in this last uh 20 years. Uh so it's it's still important for for the company who knows the importance of pattern making. But it's also change uh inside the company now because when I was working with Claudio Buffiolo or these kind of people, as I said, every office has the right people, you know. And everyone was important for the company, and the company was these people, you know. Now is now it's price and numbers and percentages.

Andrew 37:55

What qualities can't be taught in a classroom? I mean, there's certain things that just you can't get in a classroom. What are those?

Alessio 38:02

Uh the the the knowledge of uh no the the not the knowledge, the the how gonna say we say it in Italy the Cosa Pevoletta, the I don't know the word in English is uh the is to know that this is our organic job. So you you will never finish to learn. And I'm still learning from my students as well. So you you never finish to learn and you never you never think that uh you you arrive or you made uh you made it. Because uh every year came a new technology or a new fabric that you have to manage and which is different from the or a new designer or a new company or uh etc. So the lesson is to be like Bruce Lee says, uh like water.

Andrew 38:52

Okay, let's go through some kind of quick questions. So I want quick answers from you. Maybe one sentence each question is okay? Yeah, yeah. Best fitting gene ever made.

Alessio 39:03

Best gene. The 1943 Levi.

Andrew 39:10

Most underrated technical skill. Pattern making. No hand patterns or digital. Digital? Favorite fabric to work with in Denim. 100% copped on 12 ones.

Alessio 39:25

Most common hitting mistake the cross of the uh front and back riser and the scene, which is the denim tent characteristic, which is completely different from a formal tent. A tool that you couldn't live without. The curiosity.

Andrew 39:44

A book every pattern maker should own.

Alessio 39:47

Mine, which uh will come out next year, ultimately. Yours. Yeah. Because there's not uh there's not a book of pattern making.

Andrew 39:58

Favorite company gene in the market today. Oh my god.

Alessio 40:03

Uh in my taste is uh Levi's vintage coughing. Because genes is genes, you know what you can invent more than what they invent in the well, there's Japanese genes as well, they're not just Levi's genes. Yeah, but Japanese is uh is uh evolution of American genes.

Andrew 40:21

Okay. For me. So why do you have a different approach in denim than everybody else? Why do you think that is?

Alessio 40:28

You know, I have a different approach in Denim. Because I came from jazz. I learned all the rules and I learned how to don't follow the rules. So improvise. Improvise like that, like a jazz musician. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Let's say that I'm free because I I made so many patterns in my career, and I was so so different every time that uh there is not a perfect pattern or the pattern, there is the garment that fits well, that makes the designer happy, that makes the company, the manufacturer make it in uh scale, big scales, you know, without any problem. And uh the garment to come in the shop and the people who wear it and say, I like it. This is the best pattern. And there is no one. There is, you know, this must work.

Andrew 41:22

So the young people, we have a lot of young people that listen to our podcast.

Speaker 2 41:26

Yeah.

Andrew 41:26

And they love celebrity. They love celebrity. They love celebrity. So you work for lots of famous companies. Can you share some names for us?

Alessio 41:35

Yeah, I worked for uh for a company who has some very good brands in license, which was uh which was also my my idols when I was young. So it was Jean-Paul Gautier, I worked personally with him. Uh it was Catherine Amlet, and I work, and I still speak with her by phone. And I worked for uh Sport Chanel for uh five years. And I worked for uh DKY Jeans, I worked for uh Timothy Everest, I worked for uh a lot of replay, of course, uh, Diesel Denim Gallery and uh Boy London, which was uh amazing in the 80s.

Andrew 42:12

Boy London was I mean, it's the young people don't remember that brand, but it was a good one.

Alessio 42:15

Yeah, but they will, they will, they must remember because it's coming, coming again. These kind of things like Buffalo style uh from the 80s, London 80s, it's coming back. Yeah. So yeah, these are some I remember, but I worked for many brands uh also after after uh I finished my employee career in 2012 and I started my studio. I worked for many, many also I helped many small brands to grow up because I've followed them in uh design, pattern making, uh quality control, laundry. I went to laundry to check for the washes, to get the archived garment to copy the washes, etc. So I'm I'm more open, I'm very open in skills uh I can develop a product since I'm not just a pattern maker. Because of my curiosity, I told you before speaking with my colleagues, etc. And I get many information that I use now, and I have uh small brands to develop the collection. Collections and also big brands.

Andrew 43:15

All right, let's end on this note. I want to promote your studio. So if anybody who's listening wants to get a hold of you, who should they contact besides me?

Alessio 43:25

Okay. Do you want me to promote my studio? I do. Okay. Okay, I'm not great to advertise myself.

Andrew 43:34

I want you to say whatever you want. Think of it as an advertising moment on late night television. It's uh two o'clock in the morning, you had a bunch of drinks, and you see this advertisement about your studio. What would they say?

Alessio 43:46

Okay, so I I can say that my studio is a small studio. I'm alone, so I work, they will work with me. And I follow all the things, only the things that I can follow in the best way, and I can provide patterns, mostly menswear pattern or gender-free patterns. And I'm specializing in denim and sportswear, and I can provide the digital pattern, the um first prototype, and or I can manage a prototype from other company, and I can also provide a pattern-making office organization, which is uh something I'm doing now for a big company that I cannot manage. And I can help uh small brands to create their collection and follow all the steps to achieve a quality product, which is very important. What's the name of your studio? My studio is called the Taylor Pattern Support. Taylor Pattern Support in Padawa. In now it's in uh Vicenza, north of Vicenza. Vicenza. Yeah. Yeah, that there is a web website which is tailored.com, but maybe you can link uh link it on your website. And there's an Instagram too, which is the Taylor Pattern Support. And uh yeah, I'm not very into social networks, etc., but it's just to promote my my in my studio. Yeah.

Andrew 45:08

You have to.

Alessio 45:08

I'm a meeting.

Andrew 45:10

You have to promote everything, otherwise no one hears about you. Yeah, yeah. Alessio, it's my honor to get to meet you and thank you for reaching out to me. Thank you. I hope that there's some people listening that can use your services and have the good fortune to get expertise.

Alessio 45:29

Yes, I hope to, and uh my expertise is uh available for all, of course. And I thank you very much, Andrew, for uh the hospitality, and it was nice to chat with you in uh uh like uh two old chaps. And uh yeah, thank you very much. And I hope my my my English was uh good for for your listeners because you know I'm from Venice.

Andrew 45:51

Your English, your English is beautiful.

Alessio 45:55

Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Ciao