Ep 65—FRESH BLOOD, Part 5: From Volume to Value with Saifullah Minhas

FRESH BLOOD is about renewal. Every industry either regenerates itself or slowly hardens. In this Jeansland series, Andrew steps back to listen to the next generation already working inside denim’s supply chain, upstream in fibers, sourcing platforms, laundries, and raw materials.

In Part 5 of the series, Andrew sits down with Saifullah Minhas, Director of Sales and Marketing at Delta Garments, a third-generation family-owned factory based in Lahore, Pakistan. His family business, built out of collapse, reinvention, and persistence, exports denim and twill apparel to the UK, EU, and US.

From there, the discussion moves through the realities of running a factory today. What happens when a business becomes too dependent on a single customer. How COVID forced a reset from volume-driven production to product-driven thinking. And why shifting a factory’s mindset can be harder than changing its machinery.  

They also get into where value is actually created. The pressure to undercut versus the decision to build something more complex. The gap between fabric capability and finished product. And why Pakistan, despite its strength in raw materials, still struggles to define a clear product identity.

There is a broader layer underneath it all. Sustainability, and where it breaks down. Not in effort, but in measurement, incentives, and accountability across the system. What can be controlled at the factory level. And what cannot.

At its core, this is about direction. About ownership. And about what it takes to move from filling capacity to building something that lasts.

Thank you to our sponsor Inside Denim.

Saifullah Minhas
Director Sales and Marketing, Delta Garments
Delta Garments, Delta's LinkedIn, Saifullah's LinkedIn

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

There is a moment in every industry when the veterans look around the table and realize something uncomfortable. And that's that the room is getting older. Maybe you are already the oldest person at the table. Fresh Blood is the series inside Genes Land where I step aside, or at least lean back and listen, to the people under 30 who are already inside the gene supply chain. Not influencers, not commentators, not big-time fancy operators. They're the next layer, the next shift, the next pulse. The series is about catching the heartbeat of a new generation, how they think, about their genes, the industry and its future. And I want to hear from people not just in Europe, Turkey, or USA. I want to hear from those in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, China, wherever. Please do write me. In this series, we talk about sustainability from their point of view. Maybe most importantly, we ask whether genes will matter in 20 years. And if so, what the world will look like for them at that time. I'm doing this series because every industry faces the same test. It either renews itself or it calcifies. These are the voices that determine which direction we go. This series is called Fresh Blood. We hope you like it. Today I have the chance to talk to another young person in the industry. How old are you? I'm 32. 32. Oh, he's on the edge of over my limit of 30, but I did a 34-year-old last week. So this gentleman was introduced to me by a friend of mine in Lahore. He is a factory owner. I have no idea before I start whether he was the creator of the factory in some way or he's created what it is today. So we're going to get into that. I'm excited to interview him. You can't see this, and I can, but he has a beautiful smile and an eagerness that I think you're all going to feel. So it's a pleasure to meet you. Sephala, is your name Sephala, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:57

My name is Sephala. Thank you so much for having me here, Andrew.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

No, it's a pleasure. I never heard your name Sephala before. I've been in Pakistan a long time. Where does that name come from?

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Sephala is basically it's an Arabic name. It's a name that means bravery. It means basically the sword of God, which is to do with bravery and all that. It's a name that my mother was very inspired by.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

The sword of God?

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a name that she was very inspired by. And so she wanted to name me that. So here we are.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Do you have brothers and sisters?

SPEAKER_02 2:34

I have two sisters, no brothers.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

And what are their names?

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Oh, my older sister's name is Sania. Oh, I forgot what that means. I think it's beautiful. No, no, no, yeah. And my younger sister is named Seville, and that main name is a Turkish name, which means loved by everyone.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

So your mom really liked the letter S.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we are an S family. So it's Sajid, Syrah, Saniah, Sephola, and Seville.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

It's very funny. Your mother must be very funny.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Yeah. Yeah, there's she's she is definitely a very funny person.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

So you are part of Delta Garments. That's right. So first of all, tell me about Delta Garments. And I heard from you that your grandfather has an interesting story.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

So I am basically the third generation of this family business. So we're a cut two-pack apparel unit, but more on that later. So this business was set up by my grandfather in the early 90s. My grandfather himself was based in Kuwait, where he went in the 1950s in search for a better future. He was barely educated, just knew a bit of English, and he went there as a typist. And uh like a secretary. Yeah, they basically needed a secretary who could speak some English. And uh I I don't know what his aspiration was because he was a remarkable individual and he had a lot of energy, and you always felt that this guy is larger than life. So I don't know how he was back then, but he definitely had that vibe around him. So he went there as a secretary, and within a few years he was a multimillionaire in his own right. Uh he started his own business and an import and export business, and then he made a lot of money. And then he lost all that money first when Iran and Iraq had a war in the 80s. He made that back, and then he lost it again when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. So then he packed up whatever he had and he came to Pakistan, and with what he could salvage, he set up an apparel factory with his with another partner of his. So basically, our business is a continuation of that, and it's run jointly by two families and has been for the past 30 years.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

So I just want to say one thing is that early 90 period was when I opened an office in Lahore, and I told Cephala that I was clever enough to have an office for three years and not make any money. We heard a very similar story. Three years and not made any money. Um and the what happened at that time, which is which is interesting, is that Pakistan got a lot, a lot of investment from the World Bank and the IMF. Because at that time, um, the idea of the rest of the world is that if we load Pakistan with money and they have textile jobs, then everything is going to be safe and wonderful. And that's what they wanted to do to fix any potential political risk. They wanted to support the textile industry, and they did. And a lot of people got money. And then at that time, that they would invite me to their factory and say, Oh, I have a hundred looms. What should I make? And I was like, someone gave you money and you don't even have a plan. And that was how easy it was to get the money in those days. So then tell me what happened to the factory over the years and how got to you and how you got to it.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

So the factory, when it started out, uh, it was a similar story in the sense that we we had a factory, but we didn't really, when I say we, I mean my grandfather, they didn't, they weren't really able to get it off the ground. And it was struggling really badly for a very long time. And then in the late 90s, my father joined the business, and he brought that energy and that push that the factory needed in order to turn his fortunes and the factory's fortunes around. And so from the late 90s to 20, 2010, 12, 11, 12, and so on, the factory did really well for itself. It grew by an enormous amount. We were growing rapidly, growing with our customers who were also growing at that time. We were doing major volumes for the for some UK retailers. And then after that, we just lost our way a bit. Uh we were doing discounted prices for big retailers, and I think we weren't able to capitalize on that properly in those years.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

And we just Does that mean that you guys were were um not making enough profit or that you guys were were unable to deliver? What what do you mean? That you had to be a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

I think what we I'm interested in the real reason. What happened to us was something that's common with small with small to medium-sized factories of our size, is that you become too reliant on one customer. And instead of having your own vision, what you have is the customer dictating terms to you. And uh so that got to a point where we just weren't able to make it with that customer. I'm not going to name names, but uh then we parted ways with them. And then we, once that customer left, then it took us a long time to get back on our feet. We obviously continued work and we worked with other customers as well in the meanwhile, but we didn't really have a direction. And then came COVID. And that was kind of the wake-up call that our factory needed, and we decided to completely switch direction. So basically, earlier we were this five-pocket basic gene manufacturer that was just focusing on volumes and volumes and filling up machines and filling up capacities and just exporting at whatever price we could get. Then when COVID came, we were able to pause, take a deep breath, and decide what it is that we want to do as a factory. And that was we want to get rid of this mindset that basic garments and filling up volumes and filling up production capacities is the way to go. We decided to focus more on the product. So the first thing we did was we told our customers that we are no longer a five-pocket basic gene manufacturer. We will make any style that you want of good quality at any lead time that you want, but the price is going to be on our terms.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Sorry, keep before I interrupt you. So you you you were gonna make um shirts or jackets that aren't necessarily traditional Pakistan products.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Yes. We we decided we diversified our product, we added shirts, a t-shirt, not T not shirts, we added jackets, we added cargo trousers, we added chinos, and basically any product that could that our stitching machines could make, we were open to doing business with the customer on those products. And then the other thing we did, which is necessary to support this vision was we hired and we built a product development team which we didn't have before that point. And that product development team ended up doing wonders for us. And the product I mean, we were able to elevate our product massively in a very short amount of time, and we found really, really good success with that business model. And currently, Touchboard, we are going at a really, really good rate again, and we are very happy with where we are just now.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

So COVID was six years ago. You were 26 at that time. I was how involved were you in that decision?

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Um the decision was my father's, but the implementation, a lot of the implementation rested on my shoulders. I was very new to the business at that point because I had only joined a year before COVID. So I was basically still learning the trade, but he really pushed this vision, and then thankfully uh we were able to implement it.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

And uh your background, where did you go to school?

SPEAKER_02 10:17

So I went to college in Pakistan. I did my degree in computer science from the Lahore University of Management Sciences, and uh I during college, I set up my own business, which was a food and beverage with a chain of restaurants, basically. Started from nothing, built our way up to five restaurants, made a lot of money, lost a lot of money, sold that business off after recovering it. And then with that experience and with that knowledge of how the Pakistan business landscape works, I then entered the factory. And uh that's where my journey at began.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

So tell me about I never really asked this question after all the years of working with people from Pakistan. Tell me about your learning of English. I mean your English is amazing. So when did you I mean, when did you start English? And how does English, how did English come into your life? Was it from the time you were born?

SPEAKER_02 11:14

I come from a I mean, I was born in a relatively privileged family. So my parents were able to send me to private school. And this is kind of the dichotomy the dichotomy of living in Pakistan is private if you go to a private school, you get really good education. You learn English even if you don't want to, uh, you get all sorts of exposure that you wouldn't otherwise. And if you're not that lucky, then you go to public school where the the standard of education isn't that high, and you don't really get to learn English until later on in your education. So that becomes a weak point for those people. But I was lucky enough to be in a educated in a private school.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

So you use the words which I appreciate, privileged education. How is um being privileged? How is it for you for travel? Did your family did your family take you around the world and show you different?

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Yeah, my family loves love to travel and still dust to this day, and I have caught that bug from them as well. So part of the reason we enjoy it, we love what we do so much is because we get the chance to see the world. So my parents took me around the world. Like once again, we were very lucky. I was really lucky to have that experience. So we went to a lot of different countries to try to expose us to different cultures so that we understand our place in the world and where other countries are. So yeah, and I'm I try to do the same for my kids as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

When where where do you where where are your best memories from being young and traveling?

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Oof, so the UK, Malaysia, Turkey, the US. I mean, we've been around and every place has its own special memories. And uh it was just a different experience. To be honest, the first time that I visited the US, I was completely blown away, like never before. Because uh that was back in 2008, and that I can never forget that trip because that was the first time that I actually saw how an empire functions, how a true superpower of the world actually, you know, how it actually lives and behaves. And the second time I had that experience was that experience was last year when I went to China for the first time, and that's another trip I'll never forget for similar reasons.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

So where did you go in the USA?

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Oof, uh, we did I went to, so I have family in Maryland, so we went there, went to New York, then took the I-95 all the way down to Florida. So mostly on the on the East Coast.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah, nice. Very nice.

unknown 13:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

And do you have business in the USA?

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Yeah, we've got customers in the USA. Uh we the US was my first market as well when I started out. So I spent a lot of time in New York in the Garmin district, knocking on doors, trying to acquire customers, managed to get a few customers on board. Our main market is still the UK, but we still do business out of the US as well.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Tell me about your machinery. So when you decide to change your methodology of business, your strategy, um, did you have to change your machinery as well?

SPEAKER_02 14:10

The biggest challenge was not the machinery. It was changing mindsets. It was changing the attitude of the people who were working with us. Uh, because they were used to working in a certain way. They were used to fast production, they were used to easy production. It took us the longest time in order to change that culture within our organization of accepting difficult products and making difficult products because that's what we realized our competitive advantage was is making difficult products that other factories will not touch. If I go into the market today and I ask for a five-pocket basic gene, every factory and the neighbor is going to try and get that business. But when you throw a more difficult product into the mix, like a cargo trouser, a difficult Gino, a denim jacket with a few extra pockets or whatever it may be, then suddenly you have reluctance. And that's where we realized our opportunity was. But it was really difficult convincing people on the production floor that this is where the future lies. But thankfully, we it took us a good three or four years and a lot of pain to get to that point. But we are here now at that position where our production manager and his team, they're actually more excited than we are for difficult products. And what kind of laundry do you have? Uh so we have uh in terms of number of machines or in terms of types of machines?

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Like the kind of machines that you have, what do you have?

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Yeah, so we have front loaders, we have barrels. We don't have laser ozone, but we have front loaders, we have barrels and dryers, just the usual stuff. And we have Yell Max and some Chinese machines as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

All right. And what about sustainability? If you have a um the English especially like to talk about sustainability a lot.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

I have some uh strong opinions about sustainability.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

What about ozone and laser? How do you satisfy the big European demand for sustainability? They go on endlessly.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

See, I understand the thing is my uh I've done a lot of work on sustainability. I have really gone deep into this topic, and I have some strong opinions about how it should be. But the first thing is as a cut-to-pack unit, we are a very, very small percentage of the actual environmental footprint of a garment. It's common knowledge that a denim gene is anywhere from 4,000 to 10,000, it consumes anywhere from 4,000 to 10,000 liters of water. Out of which my laundry is contributing, what, 50 to 100 liters? If I bring that 100 down to 50, which I will happily do, what difference does it make to the actual bigger picture? So I would I'm happy to do it, and we are doing it, and we've, and I've I shouldn't be humble here, we've done some extraordinary work in sustainability to the point where our customers and third parties recognize us as one of the leading sustainable suppliers in their network.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Which way are you sustainable?

SPEAKER_02 17:13

So we are the first textile SME in Pakistan to be verified by SBTI uh for our greenhouse gas emissions targets. So we are going to reduce That's the net zero move in Pakistan, right? Yes, basically. So we're the first small tools, medium-sized in enterprise to be verified by SBTI for that. Uh we go to Magic every year, so and we submit our sustainability documentation to them as well. They get it verified by a third party. And every time we've been there, they've recognized us as one of the top leading sustainable manufacturers in the world at Magic. Magic. Yeah, out of a thousand suppliers, so we may be in the top 10, 15.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

This year, they even invite I mean, I'm mentioning statistics at this point. You're mentioning labels. I want to know statistically, what is it you do?

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Okay. So our greenhouse gas emissions are so the average greenhouse gas emissions for a cut two-pack unit are around 3.7 kgs uh of carbon uh carbon dioxide. Ours is at 1.4. Why? Why? Because we've got 60% of our electrical energy is produced by solar panels. And as a smaller unit, we just have a very, very strong control on any possible leakages, any way that we could be wasting uh energy or greenhouse gases, we don't because that costs us as well. So the advantage of the advantages of being a smaller unit is you have much more control over what you're making and how you're making it. Similarly, we've, I mean, this comes under scope too, but we've also got a lot of electrical vehicles in our factory. Once again, it's a financial benefit to us as well, but also contributes towards a cleaner environment.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Well, you're six so 60% of your energy requirements.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Yeah, solar electric energy. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Do you use biofuel for steam? No, we don't. We use gas. So you use gas. Yeah. Okay. Then what do you do for water that is exceptional for sustainability?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Honestly, nothing much. Uh I'm just going to be very honest with you. Nothing much, except that we do have a very state-of-the-art ETP plant where we are very where the water that we release into the environment is has got a much lower uh TDS, CODs, and BODs than the requirements.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

You don't recycle 100% of your water or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

No, we don't. No, we don't.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

You give the state back the water after you meet their standards. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

So the so the water that we release into the environment is at is that much is similar to the water that we take in. We don't really use it because the chemical composition gets altered, so it's not really good for the laundry. We do store water as well, so so so we do store rainwater and then use it for secondary purposes. We plant thousands of trees every single year. And we don't really count that as an offset. We just do it because it's good for the environment, and that's sort of something that we kind of do out of our own motivation to give back to the environment.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

And what and what about garbage?

SPEAKER_02 20:18

What do you do with your waste? Almost 100% of whatever garbage we have, I would say 100% almost, but like can never be 100%, is recycled or disposed of safely.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Which way?

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Recycled. So we segregate all of our garbage into plastic, cotton, polyester, whatever it may be, we segregate all of it, and then we give it or dispose it or sell it off to third-party vendors who will then recycle it or incinerate it.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

There's no there's no garbage. There's not a as far as we can control it, there's not a single material that leaves the factory unaccounted for.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

I have a question for you about Pakistan. Why Pakistan produces a lot of yarn that's great for chinos and a lot of chinos. Why in the history of the apparel industry has Pakistan not been a chino garment producer, just a fabric producer? Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_02 21:21

This is part of my this is part of my bigger uh uh complaint about Pakistani manufacturers, is that they don't really have a vision for the kind of product that they want to do. And a lot of it is just based on what the guy next door is doing. So if uh if my neighbor has set up a denim gene factory and he seems to be doing well for himself and driving to work in a new car, then that's what I'm gonna do. And I'm going to try to take his customers and I'm gonna try to steal his team from him and then offer his customer five or ten cents less and then think that I've done really good business, but it It doesn't work like that. If Pakistani manufacturers really want to succeed in today's world, they need to build a vision for their own product about the kind of product that speaks to them and the kind of product that they want to do, and they need to execute on that vision instead of copying the guy next door. Once they start doing that, is when you'll not only see chinos, you'll see puffer jackets, you'll see uh parkas, you'll see dresses, you'll see all types of products emerge from this country. Because one thing that I am convinced of is we make good product. Uh the our craftsmen are good at what they do. Our the people who are actually making the product know what they're doing. It's just that they're being let down by the people who are supposed to be giving them the vision. So, yeah, the reason that we don't make good chinos is because we seem to lack the vision to take that risk and to try to grab customers who actually want good chinos.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

So it seems it seems to me like it's crazy that your country produces the majority of the yarn for it, and the yarn goes all over the place, or the gray fabric goes all over the place.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

I I look at some of the fab exceptional fabric. I look at some of the fabrics, and I just I'm like, how, how, how are we not converting this into amazing genos? But no.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

You basically built the Bangladesh textile industry.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Yeah, and uh, but not our own.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Yes, well, it was your own because you you were happy selling your the fabric people were all happy selling their fabric, so they encouraged it. Environment literally gave it away.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Yeah, and they continue to do so. And but I've I know uh coming back to the chinos thing, I know of a few factories who started off with chinos and who were trying to sell chinos, but they but they lost that vision within months. So, I mean, so just I'm not gonna name any names again, but just to give you an example, one factory set out doing just chinos. That was the vision for the factory, and they built a big factory for it. First six months, whenever they went to sell chinos, the customer said, by the way, can you also do genes for us? And their marketing guys felt the pressure, and then they started pushing the management. Can we also add a washing machine for genes? Can we also start making genes? And now that factory is exclusively making genes and just by undercutting other people, not by actually presenting product that adds any value.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

So I think it's funny also that the World Bank that gave so much money to Pakistan to develop a textile industry once the business started to go, then they basically gave money to Bangladesh so that they could take the business away from Pakistan.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

And we helped them, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Everybody talks about how there's more too much production, but uh, there's a reason there's too much production is because there's too much easy money given to too many places. And if when one place is full and they move to the next country, give them money. So they could take the other cut the other country country's business. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Garment manufacturing is difficult, Andrew. And it's not, it's not it's not like setting up a fabric mill. Although I wouldn't know anything about finding a fabric mill, but it just seems to be an easier business because the looms pretty much function on their own. You don't really need to stand on top of the machine all the time and make sure that the guy is doing the work properly. Garment manufacturing is a completely different ballgame. I know of a lot of fabric mills as well who set up garment units and are struggling because the amount of attention and the amount of time required to run a garment unit is completely different to running a fabric mill. Uh, it's just the the parameters are different, the ways in which you can add value are completely different. So it just, I think our mills aren't ready for that. So they'd just rather focus on the easy business and keep exporting. That's where governments come in. That's where they need to align incentives in order to ensure that if you sell your fabric locally, it should actually be better for you because that encourages your garment business, your garment manufacturing business to thrive. So, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

So, what do you what do you think you're in you're young? What do you think of the industry?

SPEAKER_02 26:04

I think it's got enormous potential. I am absolutely in love with this industry. I I am really glad that I'm in this industry. Although from the outside, in when I was young, it seemed kind of boring, but it's not. It is extremely fulfilling to work in, and I think it has an amazing future in Pakistan and globally as well. Uh I don't see too many drastic changes happening. That's a bit a bit slow, but it's fun to work in.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

What do you see for what do you see as the future for Pakistan? Well, actually, I want to hear your vision of the future for Pakistan, then Bangladesh, then Egypt, and then and then Vietnam. Tell me, tell me what you how you see strategically the future going.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Strategically, I think I don't think anybody can really predict the future. Uh what I do see Pakistan, I see Pakistan hopefully changing course a bit and moving towards more value addition because it seems to me that the bigger and the smaller companies are waking up and realizing that what worked 10 years ago is not necessarily going to work in the future. So when I say that, I mean setting up huge units and focusing on one type of product, undercutting competition, not adding value. I think those things are hopefully going to be relics of the past. Hopefully, more factories go down this path of adding value to the garments that they're making. And that's where I see Pakistan in the future. That is my hope for Pakistan. That people can focus on value-added products and good products rather than just crazy volumes at cheaper prices. Because we seem to be getting a reputation for that right now. So I hope that's not in our future. Bangladesh, I can't really save much for. I haven't I haven't visited the country. I don't know what their I know what their strengths are and I know what their weaknesses are. I don't know how long they can sustain it. I don't know how long they can sustain the kinds of wages that they're giving and how long they can, you know, continue taking advantage of their status as a least developed country. I don't know how long that's going to last. Um if it lasts for the next 10-15 years, then I think they can make the shift to value-added products, but uh that remains to be seen. China, I think China is going to shed apparel manufacturing slowly but surely, because at some point it's going to get too expensive for them in terms of labor. Because this is a it's a labor-intensive industry at the end of the day. And unfortunately or fortunately, only those countries get to make apparel at volume where the labor is cheaper. So I don't think China can keep that up. I do think China will still be the world's biggest fabric supplier by some distance, because the amount of development, the amount of RD that they do on their fabrics is second to none. And I think they will continue being the world's fabric supplier. But in terms of apparel, they're going to shed that. Whether that goes to Vietnam, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Tunisia, Cambodia, Egypt, that just depends on how these countries react and how their governments react.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

And what's your view for your business? Do you have a plan to grow? Do you want to just keep the business the way it is? Do you just want to make it greener? What is your aspiration?

SPEAKER_02 29:27

My personal aspiration right now is to continue to enjoy this journey. Uh I I think that's very important for me as an individual and also for people working in my country is to enjoy the journey. Where that journey takes us, I want to grow this business. I have ambitions for growing this business to becoming one of the biggest and one of the best producers of apparel in the world. Who doesn't, right? But to get there.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I don't know what I'm not sure. I'm not sure why being bigger is is better.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Yeah, exactly. That's what my father says as well. And I agree with him, but it's an ambition because it's validation for the efforts that you're putting in. I'm very happy where we are. But that is one way of validating the effort that you're putting in is to be is to grow and to be bigger and to be better. But that's not the end all be all of this business. I think it's important to work with people who inspire you. It's important to work with people who love what they're doing, and then wherever that journey takes you, that's where you go, right? But on a personal level, my main goal is to fulfill my potential and to f and to do justice to the privilege that that I've been granted. I know I'm in a position which not many people get. I was born in privilege, I was born with a with a business that with a running business that's doing really well. I need to give back to it, and I need to give back to the community and to the stakeholders who enabled me to come into this business. So whether that's the people who work for us.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

You hadn't mentioned anything to do with with your staff or your employees or what you could do for them. So I was hoping you you would talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Absolutely. Uh these are people that I've basically grown up with. Uh ever since I've as I for as long as I can remember, I've been coming into this factory and seeing these people, you know, put in their own efforts in order to make this company work. These are people that I've seen my entire life, and I feel it as my responsibility to give back to them in whatever way I can. We currently have about 400 to 450 employees, and each employee is not just an individual. They are basically supporting an entire family in most cases of three to four people. So automatically you multiply that number by four, you get to about a thousand to fifteen hundred people. That's my that's the way I calculate this, right? How I perform and how I do my job directly impacts the lives of over a thousand people. That is an incredible responsibility, and I cannot shirk away from that responsibility. I cannot not fulfill that. I cannot not go into work and give my best every single day. So it's very important for me to do my best in order for those people to be able to provide for their families. And I've seen the change that happens when you just if you when you just give somebody a job for 10, 15, 20 years, they earn enough uh to be able to escape that cycle of poverty which they've been in for the past many generations. I've seen people who were completely illiterate, who started from nothing, who who learned a trade, who were able to grow within our company, and now the children are university graduates, and now they're like my grandfather. I've seen what the what difference one generation, like one individual actually, not even generation, one individual can change the fortune of generations to come. And that's something that keeps me going even when you know some when I'm not having good days. It is that responsibility is what keeps me going and keeps me motivated.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Well, I I I um it's not really my my job to give suggestions, but I will say this. That um you have it you have an opportunity to make a lot of people's life better with you in their life than without you. And hopefully your tank is, you know, like your car is fueled up and you get energized by the chance, not just to help the exceptional people, because there's always exceptional people. But I always think of the you know, like the Olympics, okay? There's a lot you can do for people and help them win the gold medal. But the majority of the planet is not able to do that. Yeah. They don't have it in them.

unknown 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

We still have to help them. Yeah. So one of one of the privileges that you have is the opportunity to help the person who's never going to be much more than they are now. That's all they got.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

And how to help them have a nice life and their children.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

That's something that my father firmly believes in. And it's honestly really inspiring because uh he will stick with his the people that he works with during their darkest days, and he will not give up on them. And the result is that the people who are working with us, they have been, you know, they've unlocked potential that they never thought they had. But there's a flip side to that equation as well, because, and this is just me being candid and honest, what you don't want is to have people in your team who are who are dragging other people back, who are not letting that team reach its full potential. So there's a very delicate balancing act that you need to have where you need to be empathetic and you need to take care of the people who are working with you and you need to understand that not everybody's going to be perfect. But at the same time, poor performance by one individual can sometimes destroy an entire team's performance. So that's that's kind of the balancing act that we have to then have as a you know, as leadership and as management.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

It's funny. Um sometimes it's people say in the United States, oh, the young people today they don't like to work. They they they suck, they're like lazy, they're not like we used to be, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Someone said that to me at a Christmas party. And I said to them, Well, I don't really have that experience. I find the young people today just like the young people from 20 years ago. What I think is the problem is that the management sucks. Like if you I we don't have in our company, we never had a problem with a young person. You know, if you are, maybe it's you're no good, you know, like as a manager, because part of the job as a company and as leaders is to bring the best out of the people. Not just take a photograph of their sloppiness or their lack of something and say, oh, they're no good. You know, it's like a hockey coach or a baseball coach or a rugby coach. You need to get the most out of the people. And the best coaches are the ones that win, not necessarily with the best team.

unknown 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

I think that's a big cop-out, to be honest. Just blaming it on a generation and just labeling even an employee as something, that's basically then you're absolving yourself of any responsibility to get the best out of that individual, that generation.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

So for me, it's not working in other companies. That is actually a um, how can I say, a commemoration of how good you are as a manager. If your people are always being hired and plucked from other people, you know, one of the things I'm proud of is that a lot of people who left our company are doing amazing. And the reason they're doing amazing is because they're good. But I also take a little joy and pride from the fact that maybe they learned something along the way that really helped them.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Yeah. It is a bit of a double-edged sword, isn't it? Because you wish they were doing that amazing job for you. But you're glad that they're doing it for somebody at least.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

You know, I don't I don't know if you follow professional sports, but in in in our system of professional sports, you start as a youngster, you don't get very much money. If you're really, really good, you start to get really, really crazy money. And if you really were good in your management selection, you have too many of those players. So then they start to record them all. So then they start to go out to other teams. It's it's just the way of life.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Uh I'll remember that next time somebody steals an employee from me. So I but yeah, this is a problem that we've had. And talking to you, I realize it's a good problem because uh one of my uh favorite things to do and still is was to get really young employees, university graduates, and just train them myself. And you we were able to get them to a point where they were then hired by really good companies, uh, much earlier in their careers than they were otherwise would be. And obviously, I wish that they were doing that job for us, but I'm really also really it's once again it's a validation of that what we were doing and the way we were training them was actually the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Try to take joy that you're you're one of your jobs in life is to improve the world, not necessarily only your world.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

That's actually my dream. My my one of my dream is to actually leave the world a better place than I found it through what's been given to me. Which is, in essence, this business today. That's what it is. So I have to do that. That's what you give back to other people. I can. That's what I what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

That's the two things that you can do.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Yeah. I still have strong uh I still have strong sentiments about sustainability because I have done a lot of work in it, but I think that the system is completely broken. And uh that's just something that really, really bugs me is that I I can collect these little medals along the way of being the first to do this or reducing this by this much, but we nowhere closer to tackling the actual problem, which is the climate crisis. Uh so that is something that really bothers me. And I don't know how to reconcile that with the work that I'm doing. But the I'll give you an example. Please. I'll give you an example. I could go I could go carbon neutral tomorrow, right? I could I could completely eliminate or offset all of my greenhouse gas emissions tomorrow, which would require obviously a lot of money, a lot of effort, a lot of time. I could do that tomorrow. But even if I do that, if my buyer decides to do something as simple as airing the shipment, then that undoes all of that hard work. But nobody's making that calculation. Or even if some, okay, let's even forget airing because that doesn't happen often. If the end consumer decides to wash in warm water instead of in cold water, that undoes all of our efforts as well. The thing is that there's actually no, what I realize is because I've gone into the data, I have studied this very deeply, is that there is actually no awareness of what is the true environmental impact of what we're making and how is it distributed across the supply chain. People have made efforts, but there's no, it isn't common knowledge. I mean, the buyers that I talk to, they don't know what the actual impact is, but they're more focused on taking some boxes and just getting it through so that they can report it.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Your marketing. Exactly. Levi did a study many years ago that half the water used in the garment was the consumer.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Exactly. I have memorized that study by heart. That that's my go-to study, by the way. So the so that that the lifecycle assessment that they did, that's that was an eye-opener for me, honestly. Uh, as to what impact we currently have and how we can improve. And that's been sort of my North Star for the efforts that we're making. Uh that's uh but at the same time, it is a bit disheartening. And then when I look at the buyers that I deal with, and I look at, for example, the sustainability teams in the brands that uh that we're working with, those are actually really motivated people. They actually want to make the world a better place. These are people who've actually done their university degrees in environmental management or in sustainability, any one of these things. They have dedicated their lives to this purpose, but even they aren't able to make a difference because their company isn't incentivized to make a difference.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

I had a friend who was one of the smartest people in sustainability I ever met. And he was fired. And you know what they told him in his firing? He was too serious about his job. Let me say that slowly. He was a sustainable officer, and the reason for firing him was he was too into it. Wow. He was disturbing the progress of the company.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

But if if I could ask you something, Andrew. Do you do you I mean companies are profit-seeking by nature, right? That's what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to generate a profit on the investment that they've made. They're supposed to extract from whatever resources they have and make money. Why is the moral responsibility on the companies and on the consumers to reverse or to manage the climate crisis? Why isn't there more of a push on the one entity that can actually make a difference, or the entities that actually make a difference, which are the governments and the international organizations? I mean, why do we, you know, why do companies and factories not so much, but companies and why do companies and consumers get all the blame?

SPEAKER_00 43:01

I think that the first problem with what we're talking about is a lack of measurement.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

And lack of transparency.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

So because, you know, we're all talking in general terms, and we're talking in, you know, and everybody has a different statistic for everything. So we're we're not able as a society to agree on stuff. Second of all, at least in America, I I can't talk for the EU. I'm not experienced enough with their uh legislation, legislative process. But in America, we have a clown system. I mean, we have really, it's a joke. So our our governments change um enormously. The current government doesn't even believe in climate action and climate problems. Um and they're gonna be in the government position if e in in three years' time or not. But we have such massive changes in policy, such massive changes that this is not going to ever really be solved, in my in my opinion, until there's an incredible tragedy. So when there is an incredible tragedy, um I don't know if you ever read Naomi Naomi Klein's shock doctrine book. You might want to read it. But it's about how the world really makes change when there's an enormous crisis. And we need a huge crisis. When something, and I'm I'll say this really honestly, if something terrible happens in New York City, something terrible happens in Miami, terrible, then it'll be political currency, regardless of your party to find a solution. Until then, until then, we're gonna go on and on and on. I mean, I went to visit the I can say this, I went to visit Albany or Albany with the Bangladeshi factory to ask for contract sanctity to a senator and a member of the legislation in New York State who were apparently interested in that. And quite frankly, they show no interest whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Zero. Zero. No communication, no nothing, not interested. It wasn't politically interesting. And what really our society is about in America is political currency. And sustainability has none.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Yeah. And that's it. And that's a that's a democracy. And the only solution would be to not have a democracy.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

That's no solution, go, is it?

SPEAKER_00 45:49

So I'm not sure what's into that. So I don't really understand how this is going to happen and how it really anything, you know. But anyway, you shouldn't be asking me questions. I should be asking you questions.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

I think we we do need we need collective action, but it has to be at the government level because otherwise this uh this little dance that brands and factories and consumers are doing around each other is just gonna continue with no real impact.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Uh it doesn't hurt. You know, the little dance we're all doing doesn't hurt because, you know, like yes, you say that the little things you do doesn't make a big impact. You know, John Lennon from the Beatles once said if they did a concert for money for people who need it, they could do a concert every minute for the rest of their life and they wouldn't impact, they wouldn't make a very small impact on the amount of poverty in the world. Um that's true. But doing nothing is not exactly helpful.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

It's not an option.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

So what we are we are in a process where everyone is improving in their own little ways everything.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

So I think that that's there's no value to that. We just can't measure it and we can't talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

The problem with that is the only problem that I feel with that is that this is a time-bound problem. It's not we don't have the option of waiting 50 to 100 years for the world to wake up, gain consciousness about this issue, and then get to resolving it. Something that needs to be resolved now. And I I don't want to sound you know pessimistic, but I don't I just don't see that happening until, like you said, something the world gets a big wake-up call. I had my wake-up call. Um, there was a there was a huge flood in Pakistan three years ago. A huge flood. I think about a third of the country was underwater at one point. Yes. And uh I went and visited the flood-affected areas. I I personally knew people who lost everything in those floods, which were a direct consequence of global warming. And uh you see that firsthand. But I also had another, I had another rude realization when I was over there. It was that just the climate crisis is going to kill us tomorrow, but lack of opportunity, lack of stable jobs, poor economy is going to kill us today. So the people that I saw affected were still more obviously worried about their day-to-day job instead of a flood next year. They were more worried about making it to me today than what happens in the future. So that's another concept, that's another thought that I have to live with is that obviously, and sustainability means a lot to me today and tomorrow and in the long run as well. But our first priority as a business is to make sure that our people have jobs and is to make sure that they have stable employment.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

And to help them in case there is a disaster. You know, one of my friends works for a company that has retail stores, and they lost over three years, they lost three retail stores to environmental disasters. So they now have in their budget um money. Actually, two, I think two, and they have money to replace the people the disaster, refund the disaster areas. It's now in their budget. That's been so I think that, you know, as a young person in the business, you have the opportunity to get other young leaders in the business together in all countries. And hopefully you can make an impact.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

It's a really I think the way to do that would be to lobby governments and to actually put pool together our resources in order to, instead of doing things directly, which we should be doing, but the bigger impact would be if you were able to influence public policy. That's where I think the future of this problem, the solve the solution to this problem, actually, that's where that lies. So hopefully we can do something. Hopefully we can do something.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

You have to get involved in the US and European governments. Absolutely. Anyway, it's lovely to meet you, lovely to talk to you. Um, you're inspiring, and I hope that your uh business goes well. And I hope that when you're 45, you can tell great stories and how you help so many people.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

I hope so. I I hope so too, Andrew. And I I I hope that when I'm 45, I'm able to have this conversation again with you. And maybe we can see how far both of us have gone.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Won't be me, but just take joy from those that you can.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

No, I I really appreciate the time uh that you that you give. And uh I've learned a lot from you as well in this conversation that we've had, and hopefully, hopefully, we can do something good with what we have.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

Take care.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Thank you. Thank you so much.